Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Well, Grant, C.J. we're here. We're back.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: We've made it.
[00:00:05] Speaker A: We survived.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of Ecosystem, brought to you by Waffle House. I'm working really hard to get a sponsorship from Waffle House. Also, I really want Waffle House to open a location in Gillette, Wyoming.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't even know what the nearest location is.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: That's. That's a long way off. It's probably Oklahoma.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Golly.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: It's a long way off. I should. I'm surprised I don't know that somewhere. I don't know. I don't. I don't think. I don't think Coloradans are Waffle House people.
There's probably some. I don't know, maybe never been. Anyway, if any of the executives of Waffle House are watching, I can promise you one very, very dedicated customer if you will franchise into Gillette, Wyoming.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: What a plea.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for your consideration. Anyway, we're back.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: We are.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: It's been a while. It has been quite a while.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: We weren't vacationing.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: No, no. We didn't. We didn't just take eight months off.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah, we know. There's.
There's a couple things going on.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: Some things happened. Some things happened. By the way, this is Grant. This is Grant Austin, in case you've forgotten, as Grant and cj.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: A lot of stuff's been going on around new life, but we finally had some time to record another episode.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah. So what are we talking about today, Grant?
[00:01:22] Speaker B: We are talking about
[00:01:27] Speaker A: our series that
[00:01:27] Speaker B: we're just about done with.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: We're just about. We're one more week, actually.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: This might air after.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: It's probably. It'll probably be over by the time you see it.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: But an annual series we do at the movies, and we're going to just talk about the power of stories, storytelling, and seeing God through all that, and just dive a little bit deeper. Yeah.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Yep. So if you've forgotten, that's what we do in ecosystem, it's why this podcast exists, for us to go behind what we talk about on a Sunday morning. So Sunday morning, we've got 30 minutes or so to teach. We don't always have time to deep dive into the context, but we don't want you to miss it if you want it. So that's what this conversation is about. And in order for us to really talk about at the movies, we have to talk about Genesis.
Gotta go all the way back to the beginning. So, Grant, why do you think we have to Go back to Genesis to talk about at the movies.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: We do that because that's the beginning, you know.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It's right there at the beginning.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: No, because I mean, it is setting the tone, I think, for in general, the story, of course, but like having God create us, create just the earth and everything else, but creating us in his image and then that unfolding and him telling us what we're doing here on Earth, how to live, how to be his creation, be who he is, but.
But then coexist and manage the world, I guess, around us.
And through all that, there's a story and longings that humankind has, and it's kind of revealing, I guess, in Genesis.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: So. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There are some a priori. So previously held unchangeable assumptions that we come into things with from Genesis. Right. As. As believers. So. So these are things that they stand before every other opinion and they shape our perception. So one God created everything. And the first thing said about everything is that it was good. Right, Right.
That God created humanity and gave humanity dominion over the world. So humanity has distinct influence. Our desires, problems, sins, successes, all of that is a primary driving force in the world in the function of Earth. Right. And that's something that's really important that a lot of people miss. When we're looking at scripture, that affects a whole lot of other conversations. Um, so when people talk about why. Why do bad things happen?
So theodicy the problem of evil, people ask questions about that. One of the distinctives of a Christian worldview is that God gave humans dominion so that humans actually can affect the rest of the world. When you look at the Hebrew word that's translated dominion, it's like almost like an agricultural word. Oh. So if you could imagine the difference between like, you know, fertilizing soil and maintaining a healthy, you know, farm system versus stripping soil.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:42] Speaker A: Removing all the nutrients from it. Like the dust bowl. Yeah. You know, in American history. Right. Like, that's kind of dominion. We could do both. We have the ability to do both. That's what we're given to. Given in Genesis. So when we're looking at the problem of evil, you're looking at, largely at humans actually have the ability to affect all kinds of stuff as a baseline definitional requirement of being human is that you have the ability, you know, if you're a human, you've got the ability to make things way better or make things way, way worse. Right.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: So which. There's an aside here that's important. Genesis chapter one through eleven. If you're. If you want to understand the rest of the Bible, Genesis chapter one through eleven is incredibly important because it's the setting for the rest of the Bible. You. You watch the Office.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Okay.
First season of the Office, everybody complains about. Same thing with Parks and Rec.
[00:05:33] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: The first season of Everything's Bad. Yeah.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: It's just. It takes a while to get into. I feel like most first seasons.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
But it's You. You have to watch the first season to like the characters. If you jump in just at season two, it. You don't know what's going on in the story. So the first season of the Office, even though it's cringy and they haven't hit their stride yet, that it tells you the characters and you like them. So you get later.
We get there later. That's kind of Genesis chapter 1 through 11.
If you think of Genesis chapter 1 through 11, it's mostly big picture, sweeping narratives, floods, destruction, and then lineages.
Right. He begat, he beget, he begat, he begat. That type of stuff. Yeah, that gets really boring and it's hard to get into, but it. It's really important for setting the scene for the rest of Scripture. Once you get to Genesis 12, you meet Abraham and it starts following a guy and his family. Before that, it's following humanity. So 1 through 11 is the setting that the rest of scripture kind of exists within. So it's super important.
And within Genesis 1, Genesis chapter 1, like you said, God creates the world, then he creates humanity in his image, and he gives humans dominion.
There are a couple of really important things, theologically speaking, that come out of the beginning of Genesis, and one of those is that God didn't create anything evil.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: So nothing that God created was evil.
If that is true, and if that is what we believe, then that shapes the way we view everything else that's evil in the world.
Meaning that if God didn't create it and we believe God is the creator and there's no other creator.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: So everything else is derivative. Everything else is recreation, manipulation, stewardship of what has been created.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: So if God's the creator and he didn't create anything evil, then for evil to exist, it. It can only be a corruption of what is good.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: So. And. And that's like. That's what you see in Genesis chapter three. So you remember the. The curse after the fall.
So Adam and Eve, sin. You remember some of the things that God told Adam and Eve. What happened?
[00:07:58] Speaker B: Oh, man.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Gosh, I didn't. I didn't ask you this in advance.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Oh, wasn't it like.
Like painful childbirth? Yeah, it was one.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Um. So something. Something good, right? Life.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: The reproduction. Be fruitful and multiply. One of the commands right now, now it's pain.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: Pain is the result of that. It's not. Life isn't just going to be joy anymore.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: It's a corruption of what was good.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: And then I. I don't know, the. Is something with Adam of like.
Like toiling or something. I can't remember.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: I can't remember exactly. But you will have to toil. Toil for. For the ground. Right. The. The ground will not produce for you with ease. You will have to toil. There'll be thorns and so when we're looking at droughts and we're looking at all of this bad stuff. Yeah, right. God created humans with work to do.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: That's part of dominion. That is part agricultural term. We said that. Right.
So now dominion is hard.
Work is good. But work now feels like toil.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: Work doesn't always produce fruit anymore. Right. There was. There's something good because of sin. It's now corrupted.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Right.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: So then he talks about the relationship between man and woman. He says to Eve, your desire will be for your husband, but he will lord over. Over you. The result of sin.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: Right. Which should tell us something. Let's take another aside here because we should that a marriage where someone is lording over the other is a marriage ruled by sin. Yeah, Right. It's a marriage of brokenness. The result of sin in the world was that one would lord over the other.
A godly marriage was two people. God made man and woman in his image and gave them both dominion. So they are sharing their role and their purpose and their mission in the world. Sin causes one to lord over the other, Right?
[00:09:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: But the relationship between man and woman is good.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: It is.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Marriage is a good thing. It's corrupted.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's corrupted.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So you see this Genesis chapter 3. The results of sin are the good things God created have now been corrupted. And then if you look at the rest of Genesis, you know, 4 through 11, you effectively see that corruption play out.
Right?
[00:10:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: So what happens in Genesis 4? Cain and Abel.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: One gets jealous of the other. Cain kills Abel. They were now working to produce one in the. One in the fields with crops, you know, one in the pasture with animals. It's a lot of work. They bring their offerings to the Lord. One gets jealous of the other. Cain kills Abel. Right. Later on in Genesis, chapter four, Cain's son or grandson, I can't remember which one. But he murders a kid who hurts him. As actually the story says, the guy, the kid injured me, so I killed him.
Then Lamech says, if Cain is avenged seven times, Lamech is avenged 77 times.
So, like, multiplies.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Right.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: So the relationships between humans that are good. Lamech has two wives. If I remember right, he's the first person in scripture as two wives. So the relationship between man and woman, you see it devolve from. From, you know, union into lording. One guy has power, he's got two people who follow him. Right. That's a bad thing.
Right.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Do you. This is maybe a side note. I was thinking of dominion.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Do you think.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: Because you said it was agricultural. Do you think dominion wasn't.
Was supposed to be even over humans,
[00:11:30] Speaker A: like, over one another?
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Or is dominion supposed to only be agricultural? Like, you're not ever supposed to be empower over anybody else.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: I mean, in a perfect world. Yeah, yeah. Dominion was given to humans. Right. So it's the role of humans. And we're kind of left to wonder, would there be any structures or hierarchies in a system without sin? Yeah, but what you're looking at ultimately is a. Is a system where God is the authority. So there's not really like we are, you know, we are stewards under.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: So Lord of the Rings, you know, there's the steward of Gondor because the king's not there yet. Right. We were stewards under the king, and that would have been the ultimate authority, which. Fast forward. And this is why Genesis 1:11 is so important.
You remember in the Old Testament, the people of Israel don't have a king for Genesis through First Samuel.
Right. I believe it's the middle of First Samuel. People demand a king, right? God says, you don't want a king. He's going to tax you. He's going to send your sons to war. It's going to be bad. I'm your king. People say, no, we want our own king. That's Genesis 1 through 3 playing out all over again, right?
Because Genesis 3, Satan, the, you know, the serpent tempts Adam and Eve. Oh, you don't.
You could be like God. You won't need God anymore. You could be like God. In other words, you can be the king, not the steward. Right. We don't need you to be in charge. We can have one of our own in charge. So the same thing happens later, when the people demand a king again, it's all the way back to Genesis 3.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: You know, it's the same. It's the same thing happening.
But before they demanded Saul as their king, they had God as their authority. And there were systems of. There were. There were leadership systems within their communities, but not like rigid authoritarian structures.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: But then they get a king. One guy who's in charge.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: So.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: Okay, that makes sense.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, we. We don't know. You know, we don't know what society would have looked like.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I was just thinking through it because, like, anytime you now, after sin. Enter the world, anytime, really someone has a. A great amount of power, usually they get. It gets corrupted somehow. Yeah. And it's always dominion over people. Not just.
Just over livestock or, you know, agriculture stuff. But so I just started thinking about doing like, maybe that was. That's the corruption is you're never supposed to actually have dominion over one another.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: So.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a. I think you definitely make that argument. I think that's.
I think that that's pretty.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Pretty strong in the story that we were supposed to share under God's authority. Yeah.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: But now we don't want anyone to have authority over us.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: To go back to that means we have to allow someone else to be the authority. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So the rest, like you look at once again, Genesis 1:11, and it's. It's to a large degree, it's those.
Those curses playing out, you know, in people.
Then you get to the Tower of Babel and the unification of humanity is split. Humanity is now trying to be God. They're building this giant tower. They don't need God anymore. They're gonna. They're gonna rule on their own.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: So God effectively says, in his mercy, if. If this happens, then they're gonna ruin everything.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Right. Because humans actually have the ability to affect the world. Right. We can make it better, we can make it worse.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: We can fertilize it, or we can destroy it. Yeah.
So God divides humanity at the Tower of Babel because their power is getting too great. And so in his mercy. And that's when we get the story of Abraham, which ultimately leads to redemption.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: Now, here's why all of this is important for at the movies, because this tells us that humans were created for something, a new life. We say, come as you are, become who you were created to be. Right. Humans were created for something. They were created first for a Relationship with God.
This is what we see in Genesis 1 and 2. They were created to be with God, to share in this world, to share his rule, his dominion, bringing about more goodness in his good world. So first relationship with God. And from that purpose, this relationship with God brings purpose, meaningful work place relationships, all of these things.
That's what we're created for.
Then those desires are corrupted by sin.
St. Augustine introduced, not that he was the first person to, you know, think of it, but he kind of popularized the idea of the privation theory of evil.
Yeah. Which is basically that evil doesn't exist on its own. All evil is a corruption of good.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Of good.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: So. So what that means is that every story, every human story in some way is pointing us back to the garden.
It's a. It's us trying to get what we were created for without the thing that we were created for.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: And you find this, you find this in every story. So if sin breaks marriage, relationship, then you read throughout Scripture, marriages that just don't quite work. Why? Because they're not centering them back on what they were created for. The first, the primary relationship with God. Right. You see people seeking dominion, people wanting kings, people wanting power. Right. But they're not doing it for the benefit and the stewardship of God's goodness. They're doing it for their own satisfaction of their own sense of control or their own independence.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: And it always leads to corruption. Right. In, in every story you find in some way a reflection of those desires that lead us back to the garden.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: They were trying to get back. You know, John Steinbeck wrote a novel, east of Eden, which is incredible. Super long, really, really good.
And in that novel he retells the story of Cain and Abel, but he tells it through generations in American history.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: It's super interesting. But the, the premise of the novel described by the title is that, you know, Genesis 3 says they were sent out east of Eden.
Right.
So that we now live east of Eden and we're trying to go west, we're trying to go back, but our own corruption keeps us from there. Right. Like that. That's the idea of the story. He says something in that book that I love. Near the end of the book, he writes the line, if the story troubles us, it must be that we find the trouble in ourselves.
That's the idea. Right. Every story points back to the Gospel, every story points back to the Garden because all of those stories are in us. Yeah, right.
[00:18:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Which kind of sucks.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: But it's true.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: It's true.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Which, so then if you're watching a, a movie and you know, the, maybe it's a, a very evil plot line or something, you know, it's not like a feel good movie even that, that that storyline can point us to Jesus because basically you're just flipping it in reverse.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Saying, oh, I understand his motivations. I actually have those motivations. Maybe at a micro level, but I have those same motivations. But I know the reason behind it.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: And I know the way he's doing it is going to lead to this, but I know the right way. I know how to actually live, you know, so it's kind of like almost deconstruction. Deconstructing the thought, I guess or something. I don't know.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, kind of.
Yeah. Well, it's. So first off, it's not to say that every movie is good and worth watching.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Like that's not the idea. We're not saying that you should go just watch the Saw movies because, you know, they all point back to the gospel.
What we're saying is that every story in some way reflects the story of scripture and proves our longing, proves our depravity. You know, like proves, proves what happens when we aren't redeemed, you know, our capacity for evil.
And so because of that, there's a way that Christians can look at the world that, that, that changes. It changes the way we interact with people because we see less evil people doing evil things and we see people looking for the good they were created for.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: But not able to find it. Yeah, Right, right. That, that becomes the difference.
And as Christians, I'm sure you've noticed this. I've definitely noticed this. We have a tendency and we talk about it in new life all the time. One of our greatest temptations is to forget that we used to be lost and to want other people to be better right before they meet Jesus. To forget that we needed the same forgiveness. Right. Yeah.
So that happens to us, to Christians as a culture. We start looking at other people and saying, oh, gross.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: Right. Like, you guys, you guys suck. You guys are awful.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Or we start looking at the world as enemies.
How could they ever produce a movie like that? How could they ever have a city like that? How. Whatever it is, and we start, we start categorizing people, places, ideas, as if they are, they are uniquely evil.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: But as Christians, we have to have this view that says evil is a corruption of good. Right. If, if a desire is Evil, then that desire is for something that is ultimately good, but it is not accessing the good. So it's trying to find the good thing in a harmful, destructive way.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: And any place that you see, like any human story, I mean, from.
From the most horrifying human stories, you know, to the most beautiful human stories, you will find that.
You will find that someone is looking for the fulfillment, looking for the garden again.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: The things they were created for.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: But they're not finding it. You look at someone trying to take over the world. Right. You look at Genghis Khan or Hitler.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: That someone looking for dominion, oftentimes that's somebody in their own demented, evil way, trying to create a Garden of Eden.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Right. They're trying to remove conflict from the world by getting rid of everyone who's different.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Right. They're. They're trying to remove temptation by taking away what they view to be evil.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Right.
It's selfishness, it's corruption, it leads to great evil.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: But it's the desire to do something that desires for the good of the garden, but it's corrupted by sin.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Right.
That changes the way you view people.
Right.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Because what I want to do is I want to find someone and say, I'm not you.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: You. You know, I know I've done some stuff, but I didn't do what you did.
[00:22:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: So for sure we are not the same.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Pull the old older brother in the.
The prodigal son.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: You know, for sure I've been here all along.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Right.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Put my time in. I've done this.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: I'm a prideful jerk, but I didn't go party away all your money.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
But this. This perception says, actually, I am trying to get back to the garden too, and without Christ, I'll never do it. And I'll be like, it's the. Before we started filming, we were talking about, like, you know, we would like to imagine that the desire that causes, you know, you to scroll Instagram and stop on someone selling their only fans a little too long is a lot different than the desire that would cause someone to produce pornography. Right. Like, we would like to imagine that there's a really big gap between those two things. Yeah. But. But what they actually are is more or less the same desire, you know, being fulfilled at different levels.
Right? Yeah, we would like to imagine that there's a big gap between who I think I am and who I think they are. But we are all human Beings broken, desiring the garden in different ways, trying to get back there. And the difference between me and the person I hate the most is not nearly as much as I think it would be.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. That is.
I think that is probably just a huge point in general of we're not that different. Like ultimately, we're all created in his image. We're all have that same corruption of.
Of our life and trying to get back to Eden and not seeing people.
It's always easier to. Yeah. Just to view someone else as worse than you because it makes you feel better, but really there's not much difference.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: I mean, there might be more worldly, earthly consequences to someone else's actions, but really in the heart, there's really no difference.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And what we're getting at right now, even though this isn't like directly tied to at the movies, this is really important.
A uniquely Christian worldview is that everyone is made in God's image. So therefore every human has equal value.
That worldview doesn't exist outside of Christianity.
It doesn't exist. No.
There are other belief systems that have some attempt at approximation of it, but there's no other worldview that says by definition of being human and the image in who you were made, you have value. Right.
Being human means you have this value.
You know, Islam doesn't say that. Islam says that Allah is unlike anyone else. Nothing is like Allah. Nothing is made in his image. It's one of the. I think it's the 99 like names or definitions of God. I should have looked that up before I tried to reference it on a podcast. But it's that he is distinctly different and other. And there is nothing like him.
You know, you look, you look at every other belief system and there's differentiation.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: There's in and there's out. There's righteous and there's unrighteous. Right then. And that's the clear every. Look at our culture right now. All right, sure. Take religion out of it completely and look at our culture right now. And. And it's. There are fascists and there are communists.
Right?
[00:26:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: And if you look at, you look at the talking lines of our culture, that's what it's going to be. There. There are communists trying to take over, and there are fascists trying to take over. There are racists and there are anti racists and you're one or the other. Right. There's, you know, democrat, republic. There's anything you find you're an ally or you're an Enemy. Right. That's, that's the only way we can talk about things.
And if you listen to the language, there's so much dehumanization in it.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: Right. There's.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: There it becomes if we don't share this opinion then we don't belong in the same circles. We shouldn't be part of the same community. Yeah, right.
If you, if you don't share this opinion, you can't be here.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: And you look at that like, you know, you look at the amount of people that get death threats online. You know, I follow a lot of hunting stuff and you look at the amount of hunters that have like evil comments really by like the anti hunting community.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: On, on their, on their posts. It's like I hope, I hope an animal kills you. Like it's man. If you're anti killing things, it seems like, you know, anyway, it doesn't matter. True, true.
But, but the point is like these conversations devolve into dehumanization so fast. And, and it's on the other side too.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: There's actually like a famous debate right now going on related to wolf hunting. There was like a, know an anti hunter who offered a reward for someone who reveals the names of someone who kills a specific wolf. That left Yellowstone and then there was a hunter who like very publicly made a commitment to go and kill that wolf.
This huge debate of like us versus them going on, it's actually related to Wyoming right now. It's one of the Yellowstone packs like this, this is all over in every area of society. It's us and it's them. Right.
But Christianity says humans are made in the image of God.
Chapter one of the Bible. Not, not Christians are made in the image of God. Not the people of Israel are made in the image of God. Humans are made in the image of God.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: And all are made in the image of God.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: And then Genesis chapter 12 and, and on God tells Abraham, I am choosing you so that all nations will be blessed because of you.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:01] Speaker A: And then Christ comes and the fruition of that in the New Testament you see it in Galatians, there is neither Jew nor Greek slave nor free male nor female. There is no us versus them. Right. Like that, that becomes the radical, like the radical truth of the New Testament becomes like everyone receives the same offer because everyone is made in the image of God. Yeah. Right.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: Yeah. It's just dehumanizing. Is the, the, the, the. Oh man, just lost the word. We're just talking about it. The, like what evil is man?
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Why can't eruption.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, there's just a corruption of. Of that. I mean, like, it's so much easier to.
To judge others and think you're better than them by making them not human, at least in your mind. I mean, you can go extreme of, like, Hitler and Jews. Like, they're really not a human. Really.
[00:30:04] Speaker A: Slavery in America.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: Slavery. Yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah. Three fifths. Like, they're just not human. Like. No, they are human. They are created in his image. Like, but it's just easier for the. For us to. To. To dehumanize people and make it easier to make it the other side. The other. I don't know. Yeah.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Look at the abortion debate right now. The question is, is it human?
Right. Because if it's not human, we can justify.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:29] Speaker A: Ending it.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: True.
[00:30:30] Speaker A: But if it is human, then we can't justify.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: So you're exactly right.
When we get to the point, if we can find a reason to dehumanize the person we don't like.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Then we can do anything we want to.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Right. And even if we wouldn't stoop to, you know, murder or killing them or slavery or something like that, we can. We can ostracize them.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: You know, if we can find a way to say you're not human or you're not as human as I am, you know, or I am a higher level of human. Right.
We are more enlightened than you are, so therefore I don't have to treat you with the respect that I expect. Yeah, right.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:11] Speaker A: So Scripture destroys that. Right.
And you know, that's. We were talking about this before we were recording as well, you know, this.
This way of viewing Scripture, which there are multiple meta narratives, what we would call it, that exist in Scripture, meaning storylines that transcend one book, and they go all throughout Scripture.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: And they help you understand everything that's going on.
So there are multiple of these, but one of them is what we're talking about, this sort of, like, privation view that we were created for the garden, that we. We are now looking for the thing we were created for in every other way. Right. And once again, you look at the stories of the Old Testament and even in the New Testament, but what you see is people trying to find a way to get what should have been given in the garden, but getting it in other ways. Right. This morning, I'm reading Genesis right now, and I was listening. I'm listening to Genesis right now, and I was listening to the story of Lot which is a pretty dark story.
But, you know, they escape Sodom and Gomorrah and then it's just him and his daughters, and his daughters get him drunk and sleep with him so that they. Like, as horrifying as that story is.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:24] Speaker A: The garden promised to be fruitful and multiply.
And this is people trying to get that by any means necessary. Right.
And it's corruption. It's the desire of family and legacy corrupted through control. And all throughout the Old Testament. That's what you're going to see is this is what we're supposed to have. This is what we were created for. I'm going to get it any way I can.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: Through deception, Jacob. Right. Deceiving Laban, you know, marrying both Leah and Rachel. Rachel, yeah.
It's over and over again. It's get back. It's the thing promised in the garden. But I'm going to get it however I can. Yeah, right. It's that corruption. So if you. If you view that, then one of the ways that you view what Christ does on the cross is he. He gives us back what we were created for.
[00:33:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: That sin.
One of the things that sin is, is the desire for that which I can't have.
[00:33:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: It's the.
And the. The corrupted pathway to get there.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: So Christ sets us free from the control of sin to give us the thing that we actually desire. Yeah, Right.
He restores the thing that our heart deeply longs for by paying the price of sin and restoring us to being with God. So that in Acts chapter two, when Pentecost comes and the Holy Spirit fills believers, that's the garden again.
Right. It's God with us. And now God is with us again. So that's what Jesus offers, is that those desires can be fulfilled in him. That we are helplessly enslaved, you know, to our desires until Christ sets us free on the cross. Right. Which is a version of what's called the ransom atonement period.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: You know, we are enslaved or kidnapped by sin and Christ pays the price, pays the ransom with his life.
If this is true, which I believe it is, then it changes the way we view people.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Right? For sure.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Because it becomes much harder to look at someone else as an enemy.
And it forces me to look at that person as someone who is deeply longing for God, but just doesn't know that God is what they're longing for yet. Yeah, right.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: It's hard not to be compassionate towards someone who is, like, deeply longing for meaning. And, like, they are lost and they need to be found, to be reconnected.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: That's why, you know, the. The word. Like, we use the word saved in church so much that it loses its meaning. But when, you know, Romans, chapter 10, Paul says, believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, and you will be saved, rescued like you. You will be ransomed. You'll be. You were enslaved, captured by this thing, about to die. The ship was sinking. I rescued you.
[00:35:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: You know, when you view the world as people needing rescue.
Right. And. And not as enemies out to get you.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Changes a lot of things. Yeah, right.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah.
Yeah, man, that's.
That's wild.
[00:35:48] Speaker A: Yeah. That's hard.
[00:35:50] Speaker B: It can be hard to grasp onto that, I think.
[00:35:52] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: But it's so powerful, man.
Gosh.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. Well. And, you know, this. This is why Paul writes in Ephesians, our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities that rule this dark world.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: That's why he gives us armor. But the armor isn't a sword, you know, it's not a literal sword. It's the sword of the spirit. That is the word of God. Right. Like, he takes us distinctly out of the. That guy's your enemy and into the. Those desires, those longings, those powers that have control over you. Those are the enemy.
Right. We fight against those things.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Not against each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: Gosh.
[00:36:37] Speaker A: So how does this take us back to. At the movies?
[00:36:39] Speaker B: How does it do that? It's a great question.
Well, we're watching stories, you know.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:47] Speaker B: Gosh.
When you're. I mean, I think it basically is because we're. We are watching a story after story unfold in a movie form, and we're seeing this line of.
In the storytelling of these desires of mankind, and we're seeing the corruption of it. Some movies don't have that necessarily, I don't think, but you'll see the corruption of it. And we're seeing the. The reflection in our life and.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Well, to go back to, like, you know, what we said at the beginning, this isn't to say every movie is good and should be watched, but it is to say that, like, we. We can learn to see.
To tune ourselves into the desires, the needs of the world around us. Right. So here's an example that I'm embarrassed to admit. I saw at the Barbie movie.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Did you see the Bar?
[00:37:36] Speaker B: I watched that movie.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: Nice. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I also like John Wayne movies, so I feel like I just need to say that. But I like Ryan Gosling a lot, so.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:37:44] Speaker A: What can you say? Yeah.
But if. If you watch the Barbie movie and you don't see the deep desire for, like, authenticity.
[00:37:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah, There. There are like, some modern feminist, you know, lines in that as well, which, you know, in our society, equality and women being treated with respect and dignity. Right. That's certainly a need in our culture and any side of any spectrum. But. But if you don't watch that movie and just see at the baseline, the. This commentary on the fact that we live in a plastic world, giving us everything that we want and we find no sense of joy in it, and what we want is out.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:19] Speaker A: Right. Then. Then you're kind of missed. Like, that's a commentary on living in the wealthiest country in human history, in the most comfortable society and safe society in human history, and the fact that our depression and an. And suicide rates and, you know, lack of discontent and lack of happiness. Right. Is extremely high.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: Right. So you watch that movie and what you see is us. Yeah, I hit the mic. Us reflected back at us. Right. And you learn to do this in. In all kinds of movies. Right. Sometimes the. The person who writes the movie or the person who writes the song or the novel is. Is intentionally making a commentary about something, and that's what we need to pay attention to.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Other times there's that subliminal, subconscious, almost human reflection that's in the story where we can learn to look with compassion. Right. As Christians, it's easy for us to. We.
We hear about a song or an artist or, you know, a movie that. That writes something that's against our morals.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: And our reaction is to say, how could you.
Right.
Enemy?
Instead of to say, what does that tell me this person is longing for?
If that story is being embraced by our culture, what does that tell us our culture is longing for? Because if they're longing for something, it will ultimately be found in Christ.
And if I can figure out what they're longing for.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Then I know how to share the gospel in that context.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:39:53] Speaker A: If I can look at the Barbie storyline and I can tell you that Christ offers you who you were made to be. Nothing fake and nothing plastic. Christ offers you a life that is not perfect because perfect is perfect, is not worth it. He offers you a life that is authentic and meaningful and full of good and bad, but it's all redeemed so that you can be fully yourself. Right. Like that. That's a storyline that paying attention to culture Tells me is really, really necessary.
[00:40:24] Speaker B: Oh yeah. Right now I think that's the right kind of viewpoint in general to watch. To watch movies and like, like we're not saying go watch any movie you want. But I.
Hollywood or even just writers in general, but Hollywood is producing most of the movies. They're professional writers. They know what they're doing. They know how to tell a story, they know how to show a story.
And so it can be very.
They can disciple you very well. And watching that and, and it could even make you think like always comes to mind. But Breaking Bad, the show.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: The main guy is absolutely awful.
And they're so good at writing this, the storyline that you're rooting for this terrible person.
But actually he is longing for certain things in his life and if you can watch that series in that you can empathize with him and you can maybe, maybe not see people exactly as extreme as he is, but see people that have those tendencies and yeah. Be able to disciple them and help them along that journey and. But if you're just watching every movie just. Just to watch it and there, you know, you don't have that lens, I guess over could actually be almost harmful like I would assume just because the world is very good at discipling people.
[00:41:40] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think this whole idea of viewing movies or viewing even music or whatever are this way is very, very beneficial for Christians.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: Yeah. When we. This is one of my biggest pet peeves with preachers. There are a lot of people who are preaching and they're trying to preach to, you know, a diverse group of people, but they haven't watched a movie or read a novel or listened to a non Christian song in 15 years.
And you can't preach to people who don't believe what you believe unless you have some way of interacting with what they believe. You just can't do it.
Christians get accused a lot sometimes rightfully of not knowing what's going. Like we're just disconnected from reality. We don't know what real life is like.
Right. And a lot of it is because, you know, we haven't paid attention to the real questions and pain.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: World around. We just haven't listened.
You know, we, we've been listening to K Love. If you listen to Kaylov, that's great. Keep doing it. But if, but that's all we're paying attention to. And we've forgot the, you know, the longing, you know, the, the loneliness.
[00:42:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: Right. You know, Dolly Parton just died which has shaken my world a little Bit. I grew up going to Dollywood a lot. Never been, man, what a place.
But, you know, if you think about, like, I've been reading some stuff about her and, you know, the song she wrote and how iconic and transcendent, you know, she wrote Jolene 9 to 5, I will always love you. Those are the big ones. Do you think about, like, the. The depth of, like, emotion and authenticity in a song like Jolene? Right.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:43:13] Speaker A: That song was transcendent because everybody's felt it.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: It's a human longing. It's a desire for safety and security and the fear of losing the thing that you think you have because there's someone better out there who will take it from you. Right, right. And we, as Christians, we do, like, we do such a bad job of seeing that longing, and then we don't know how to preach to it. Well, the gospel has the answer for that, you know, honestly.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Like, the gospel is the one who will never leave you or for.
[00:43:40] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: The one who is perfect and loves you exactly as you are.
That's the answer. But if we're not listening to the stories, we'll never preach what they actually. What the world actually needs.
[00:43:52] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: You know?
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: So you're right. This is the way. And you know, to your point earlier about Breaking Bad, like, I sometimes think we should, like, we should empathize with that bad guy.
[00:44:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:12] Speaker A: Because here's the thing. If you're a Christian and your. Your response to a show like Breaking Bad is horrible person. True, unredeemable.
[00:44:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Then you've missed the Bible.
True. Like, I'm not saying go watch Breaking Bad. I've actually never watched it. It's like, I'm not. It's very good not. Not promoting any of these things. What I'm saying is, though, like, if our reaction to these stories is once again enemy, us versus them and not that guy could be saved too. Right. This is the whole Christian story, is that guy can be saved too. That girl can be safe too. Is the thief on the cross. Right? I was a rebel, probably a murderer.
I mean, he deserved death.
Jesus said, today you'll be with me in paradise with no evidence of change. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Just his declaring faith. So if we. If we can't look at those stories and have. Still have compassion for that person, for sure. Right. And we're. We're missing the gospel.
[00:45:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: But, you know, once again, this is not saying just go watch all these movies. This is not some sort of mindless promotion. No, this is to say, this is why that we take a series like at the movies, and we say, this isn't just. This isn't shallow.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: You know, this is not just entertainment, but every human story points us back to the gospel. And we need to learn to ask, what are. What am I longing for? Yeah. We need to learn to be able to look at the world around us, to look at the people around us. If you're a parent, it would help you to know what the music your kids are listening to is. Right. You don't have to have it in your, you know, in your Spotify all the time, but listen to it. Figure out what the longings of those teens are, what they're trying to be fulfilled. Figure out what's on their Netflix queue, because that's going to tell you the things that are going on, the desires, you know, that they're longing for. And those desires can only be fulfilled by the gospel. But we are constantly seeking corrupted ways. Fill them.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: Right? Yeah.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: So, yeah, for sure.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: Sweet.
[00:46:16] Speaker B: I think we covered it all.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: I hope so.
I hope so.
[00:46:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: But. Well, I hope, you know, if for everyone that's listening to this, that maybe you walk away with more compassion, a little bit for yourself. Right.
You know, one of the ways sin is described in scripture, there's a lot of different ways sin is described in scripture, but is a sickness. Right.
And we are. The temptations we have are longings for things that can only be fulfilled by Christ.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: When we look at our temptations, you know, what. What you're looking at and sometimes the way we have to view ourselves is you're a kid who can't find their parents in a store.
Right. You know, that moment, you know, if you're a parent, you know, the moment where you couldn't find your kid. And if you're a kid, you know, you remember the moment where all of a sudden mom and dad weren't there and the world felt crazy, you know, and you were imagining, like, growing up on the streets for a second.
And that's like.
As a child longs for the safety and security of the home that they were created to be nourished in. Like, we go around looking for the thing that we were created for, and our temptations come from finding the shortcut to get the thing that we're desired. Pornography is the shortcut to intimacy. It does not fulfill or satisfy. It's a corruption and it destroys.
But it comes from the longing of being, of needing to be fulfilled, of desiring intimacy. You Know, anger is the longing for justice, right, for right to be done. And it's often, you know, everyone talks about righteous anger.
Jesus was righteously angry once in the Bible. So, you know, if he had three years and he was once, then if I get 30 years, I might get once.
Most of my anger is not righteous.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: But, you know, it's. It's a shortcut that doesn't help, but it's longing for just. It's. It's, you know, it's looking at a world that doesn't feel right and saying it has to be right. You know, it's.
Look at any. Any of those desires, and it's. You know, it's the classic, you know, the.
The bully, the arrogant, prideful person is probably insecure, and that's why they seem so prideful. You know, it's like we're all. We're all longing for something that means we can look with compassion on ourselves.
And instead of saying, my gosh, you idiot, why did you do it again? We can say, God, Father, can you fulfill this desire? Like, I need something from you.
And then we can look at the world around us, and instead of, how could you? How dare you? We can say, there is. There is an answer to what you're looking for.
[00:48:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I mean, it probably doesn't matter in sequence, but I feel like the inward first is important because once you can actually grasp that. Yeah, I felt I fell short again. Now I did it again. God, fulfill this area of my life. Like, help me with this, and you can see, you can experience the compassion on you. It's a lot easier than to see, oh, God has compassion on them, too. I should have compassion on them as well.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:49:23] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:49:23] Speaker A: 100%.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: Yeah. All right.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: Well, hopefully it won't be eight months or however long it's been before the next one. Yeah, we'll do a. We'll do a. A ecosystem podcast for our series this fall called While I Breathe.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: I hope it's gonna be a good one.
[00:49:39] Speaker A: Yeah, we're stoked about it. So thanks for listening and hope to see you Sunday.
[00:49:50] Speaker B: It.
