Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What is up, Church 307? We are back again for another episode of the Ecosystem podcast.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Yes. With me, as always, is Grant.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Yo.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yo, word. Word to your moms. We came to drop bombs.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: Yes, we did.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Yeah. If you know what that reference is, then you need to be in church.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: You should be.
I'm really excited about this because today we have a good friend of mine, someone I look up to a lot of, and the person who's probably my favorite Bible teacher, and his name is Phil Vanderplog. Phil is joining us via Zoom from South Carolina. But, yeah, Phil, we're so stoked that you're here.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Yeah, man, thanks for being here, man.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: I can't tell you how privileged I am to be on here talking with you guys. You know, we're talking about, you know, the way you guys do your podcast. It just sounds incredible to have the discussion. And cj, I love you, man. You were my pastor for a while.
Still a pastor in my life right now, actually.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: And I didn't scare you away from the faith, so it was cut. It was. It was touch and go a couple times. So.
[00:01:09] Speaker C: No, the world needs more genuine people, man.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: You are the real deal.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: Well, thanks, man. That means a lot. It means a lot.
[00:01:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'm. I'm stoked about this conversation. We are talking about resurrection and why resurrection matters. Yeah.
You know, we obviously know if you're in any way familiar with faith in Christ, Christianity, then you know that resurrection is central to what we believe.
But it's one of those things that we talk about all the time. But we, I. I think never really do a deep dive of why. Why is resurrection significant in Scripture? It. Was the resurrection of Jesus just kind of a one off event?
Was it something thematic? Does it unlock the rest of the story of sc?
You know, is this just the conclusion to the death is. Is the most important part of the story. The death and the resurrection is just the icing on the cake. You know, how does it all work? Those are all things that we. We talk about it. But in my experience, when you actually ask, why does resurrection matter?
It's a lot harder to answer than, you know, and it seems like it would be.
So.
Yeah. And Phil is, like I said before, one of my favorite Bible teachers. So if anybody can help us dive, it's Phil.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: So here we go.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: You ready for us to throw questions at you, my friend?
[00:02:33] Speaker C: Let's do it. We can talk about the Bible. We can talk about diesel trucks. I work on both.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: If you can weave them together, then I would love that.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: Holy.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
All right, so let's start with, with what might be the most obvious question, but let's just kick around. Why does it matter that the resurrection was historical? One of the things that I've heard, I actually heard on a podcast. Oh, gosh, I don't remember how long ago, not that long ago with some people who are supposedly a Christian podcast. And they were talking about all the different perspectives and they were saying, well, maybe the resurrection is a metaphor. Maybe it was a spiritual resurrection, not a physical, historical resurrection. And they were using Christian language, but describing very non historical perspectives of the resurrection, which I would consider to be not Christian, you know.
So, Phil, in your mind, why does it matter? Or does it matter, I guess, that the resurrection is actually historical, not a metaphor, not just a spiritual event?
[00:03:36] Speaker C: I think it's really important because there's, I mean, there's a lot of ancient mythology, you know, I mean, there's a lot of things I could choose to believe because somebody told me about it. You know, I don't think there's something so fantastic about, you know, a religion that's taught and, and, and you know, you know, Jesus had just passed away and people said, hey, he was God. You know, we believed he was God because he said he was God. Now listen, we do, you know, but at the same time, the fact that he resurrected shows that there was something more to Jesus than just what he was saying.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:04:17] Speaker C: That Jesus actually, if he had the power to rise from the dead, then he must have been who he said he was.
You know, Jesus, he even used that as when he was talking to the apostles, you know, about rising on the third day being proof and testimony of his message. So I think it, it, as far as Jesus's message goes, it adds, it adds a lot of power to the message because it shows that he could do, he could do what he said he could do. He was, he was in fact God. He didn't just say that he was.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
So what I'm thinking about this just in case there's somebody watching who's maybe new to faith or curious about faith.
What for in your minds, what would the evidence be of the resurrection that we, we believe it's historic? In your mind, what proves that that actually was a historic event?
[00:05:20] Speaker C: Man, I tell you, it's so convincing if you look, you know, I'm so grateful that when I, when I did my master's work, I got two master's degrees in biblical studies and Translation. And I chose to. I chose to go to a school that they would say they were Christian, you know what I mean? But they weren't. Like, not all of my professors believed the Bible was even true. You know, it was. I. I wanted to go someplace that was going to challenge me.
So I think I got to read a lot of things that maybe you wouldn't get to read if you just went to, like, a conservative Bible college.
I was questioned in ways and.
And dude, one of the things that just.
That just really supports the resurrection and Jesus's testimony in general is ancient Jewish writings.
It's like hundreds of years, you know, hundreds of years after Jesus rose from the dead, maybe even 150 years. You know, you're going to start getting a little before that, you know, some early Gnostics, you know, where people later, after the time of Jesus are trying to wrap their heads around it and be theologians instead of Biblicists and try to explain how they could understand it.
But we don't have these contradictory stories about Jesus from the actual time of Jesus.
And they're actually very interesting supports for Jesus.
One of the things that really increased my faith when I studied it was in the Talmud and in the Mishnah, the Babylonian Talmud, and the Palestinian Talmud.
The stuff that they say about Jesus is so interesting because they say terrible things about him, like he's burning in human feces and yikes. I mean, terrible stuff like that. But what they don't try to do is deny the miracles.
They don't try at all to dispute that that happened. And it's understandable because they couldn't because they were happening and they did happen.
And so they had to find a way to say Jesus was evil and that's how he did magic, rather than that the miracles didn't happen. There's one story in particular. You know, it's late after a long day's work, so I might not remember all the names, you know, but one of the very important rabbis in the Talmud tells this story about how he was walking through the marketplace with his grandson and his grandson began to choke and he wasn't able to breathe, and he was dying, and a believer walked up to him and said, in the name of Jesus Christ, be healed.
And he was healed.
Now in like, sort of Jewish debate fashion, you know, the way rabbinical scholars argue things, you know, he said, wouldn't it have been better if my grandson had died than been healed in the name of Jesus the Nazarene?
You know, okay, so what do you do with that now in 2025, you know, where we question whether the miracles even happened.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:41] Speaker C: Maybe there's some explanation for. Maybe Jesus didn't really raise from the dead.
They didn't try to do that in Jesus time period, because they couldn't do that.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:52] Speaker C: Everybody knew that it was true that he rose, that he did miracles. They just had to explain it away in a different way. But I found that to be very meaningful now because I'm like, oh, when you study biblical studies, as you guys know, it's like the opposing testimony is very important. And if they say something positive about a guy, or girl for that matter. Yeah, it's probably true. If they didn't like them.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:09:23] Speaker C: So I would say there's not reliable testimony that's really questioning Jesus's power abilities. And the resurrection.
They tried to explain it away in other ways and now, honestly, I think less in the last couple of years. I think people are becoming more open to spiritual and miraculous things.
But our Western minds, we're the ones who really try to take the miracles out of it.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:09:53] Speaker C: To take the reality of the resurrection out of it because it benefits us if, if things only happen the way we understand, then we're in control, right?
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:10:02] Speaker C: So, yeah.
Boy, that was a long answer. I don't know if I really got what you.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: That was great.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: Do you, either of you, I don't know this answer, but either you guys know this, but is there. You're talking about Jewish writings and stuff like that. Is there other historical evidence or people writing about the resurrection? Or do we get most of that from the Bible, but then also from Jewish writings and stuff like that.
[00:10:29] Speaker C: There's a big gap.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:10:30] Speaker C: Like there's, you know, obviously, you know, the, the Bible has the strongest testimony just because of how many manuscripts there are for sure.
Compared to.
There's just not many manuscripts. There are some Roman writings and scholars will debate about them. Pliny the Younger said some things about the resurrection.
Josephus said some things about the Resurrection.
And interestingly, to my point, a few minutes ago, neither one of those guys were believers. Neither one of those guys ever became believers, but they believed.
You know, Pliny the Younger wrote and experienced the earth shook and the sky turned dark when Jesus was crucified. And so then you have Gnostics later saying stuff that's a little bit weird, but they're later enough. They're not first generation.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:11:27] Speaker C: People who experienced it, you know.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. One of the things I would add to that is, so I had A. I have a friend who is a philosopher. He talks about the concept of falsifiability, that any, any worldview or philosophy that you should take seriously should have a falsifiable outcome. There should be, there should be a venue or an avenue. Sorry. By which it could be proven wrong, basically. So the example that's given, and this isn't just a pick on Mormons, this is just the one that I know off the top of my head. You know, in the Book of Mormon, it says something along the lines of, there were seven major cities in North America, but you'll never find any archaeological evidence for them because they were absorbed into the earth.
That's not falsifiable. Right. So if, if I say, yeah, like I promise I saw a 400 inch elk up there, but a bear ate him and his horns burned up, you'll never find. You shouldn't believe me, you know, because I'm not creating a way by which you could disprove me. I've made it impossible. True, but scripture doesn't do that. Right? Scripture is. Scripture makes falsifiable claims. You know, Paul says Jesus appeared to 400 people in Jerusalem. Like if you were trying to make something unfalsifiable, then you would not depend on.
[00:12:50] Speaker C: You wouldn't even bring it up.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Why would you bring that?
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Exactly? You would say only those with special knowledge saw the resurrected Jesus, or only those with special glasses saw the resurrected Jesus or something like that. You know, you would find a way to say, well, you can't trust anyone who didn't see it because of this. But scripture consistently doesn't do that. Scripture consistently opens itself up to the testimony of, you know, other people. Even to the point, you know, one of my favorite references of this is just that, you know, in my understanding, Christianity is the only belief system in which taste and see that the Lord is good is a core concept. You know, it's not have faith and then later it will be proven good. Or if you believe and prove yourself obedient, then eventually the reward will come. But it's. No, this is a better way. This is, this is. Here, try it out, you'll see. Yeah, you know.
[00:13:41] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: It reminds me too of, you know, one of the other claims in the Bible that gets questioned a lot is the crossing of the Red Sea. You know, but people, you know, as a historian, you look at that story and the lead up to it and afterwards is you have the Israelites traveling from place to place saying real names of real places.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: Like no myth does that kind of thing. No myth uses real city names. No myth uses real people's names.
It's made up where the Israelites are. Like, hey, we stopped here, we stayed there for a while. We went here, we went here, we went here.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: It's an itinerary to verify.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:26] Speaker C: You know?
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Oh, this, this is a rabbit trail that we can very easily jump down.
But. Because I love it. But going back to resurrection.
So in your mind, Phil, is there any sort of overarching kind of significance to resurrection in scripture? I guess really what I'm getting at here is that is this, is the resurrection just kind of a one off thing that proves that Jesus is God or does the resurrection kind of unlock something we should understand about the entire story of scripture? Are there places in scripture that allude to resurrection or that only make sense because of the resurrection?
[00:15:07] Speaker C: Oh yeah. The overarching theme of the resurrection is that God is alive.
God is alive, God is all powerful, God is commander over all things.
If Jesus didn't raise from the dead, that would be in question.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: But that's what's being shown. I mean, Jesus died for our sins.
Right. But like the exclamation point on that story is that God is alive and God is powerful.
That's what you need to remember. And that's what we. And I know this is one of the questions, so I won't get into it. But that's, that's the thing that needs to become more real to us.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:15:55] Speaker C: Is that simple truth that this is not just something I believe, but my God is alive, he is active and he is more powerful than anything else.
And that's. The Old Testament is all about God showing his power over other gods.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:25] Speaker C: Whether they're the gods of the other nations or they're the idols that you create.
Right. The end times after the Gospels. I mean, all of that is to show God's power and greatness and the resurrection of Jesus after dying on the cross is just to keep that consistency that God is alive.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. That's interesting to.
You could almost frame the story of scripture and specifically of the Israelites as if they are kind of constantly looking for something more powerful.
One of the things that I think we often wonder about the Old Testament is, you know, Elijah calls fire down from heaven and you know, a, like all of these, the Red Sea parts, miracle after miracle happens, but then the people drift away to another God. You know, it's almost like there's a question in there of what would God have to do to prove his authority? Or what would God have to do to prove that his way is best? Like, how many miracles would he have to do? Is it defeat death? You know, that he would have to do to prove that he is the final answer and the final authority, you know, so that we would not drift away seeking another form of power or authority.
Yeah, that's. That's. That puts an interesting.
Not spin, but adds an interesting depth to all of the stories, you know, of the Old Testament. Because that's. I mean, it's exactly what's happening in the story of Elijah on Mount Carmel. Right. Is whose God is more powerful.
[00:18:10] Speaker C: Yep. And Moses. I mean, the Egyptian gods are.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Yep, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:15] Speaker C: You know, the God of Israel.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: And then the prophets are all about, you know, when you don't follow the God that is alive, this is what happens, you know.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, and then Jesus, you know, in. In his death takes the entire idea of power, but then turns it on his head, showing that, you know, power is not ultimately the ability to defeat your enemies with might, you know, but power is ultimately your ability to forgive and love. And, you know, that the.
That he can take, you know, all of that upon himself and be victorious in that way, in his, you know, even submission to death.
[00:19:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. His ultimate, ultimate goal is redemption.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Even. I mean, there's.
Jesus made claims all throughout his life in his ministry. He did miracles, performed miracles.
All of that is talked about. And so I feel like even the resurrection is.
He said multiple times that this would happen. So that did not happen. That would be something that people could use to disprove him if they're trying to. But even through that, like, even his resurrection fulfilled things that he was saying. So, like his just his consistency all the way through his ministries. I think the resurrection is just like you said, like, exclamation point to.
To it.
[00:19:50] Speaker A: I think it's awesome. I think it's Andy Stanley that said, like, don't debate about the Old Testament. The Old Testament matters, obviously, theologically. But he's like, we shouldn't. We don't need to debate the historicity of the Exodus story. We. The only thing we need to debate is whether Jesus actually rose from the dead. Because if a guy said he was going to die and rise three days later and then did it, we should just believe whatever he says.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah. You know what?
[00:20:14] Speaker A: If Jesus thinks Exodus is true and he rose from the dead, we should believe that Exodus is true. Because anybody who can call their shot like that is trustworthy.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:24] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:26] Speaker C: That's a funny way to put it.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: He's good at that. Yeah.
So one of the things I. I've been thinking about lately, and part of this is, you know, kind of the season we've gone through as a church, and there's a lot of stuff going into it, but resurrection, you know, is we are claiming to hope in something that we can't see.
You know what I mean? Like, Jesus rose from the dead, but he is the only one who has passed through, you know, what is ultimately like the great fear of all humans. You know, we all fear death in some way.
So there's this. There's this sense of. We look at resurrection and there is a hope that we find in the resurrection because it offers us the. The answer to this great fear that we all have, the great unknown. But at the same time, resurrection comes through death. You know, Jesus did not defeat death by going around it. He defeated death by going through it.
So I think of. I think of the phrase that I hear fairly often. A lot of theologians have used it, but the already not yet kingdom of God.
And it seems like, you know, when we look at resurrection, we're looking at this thing that's like, it's already proven Jesus resurrected, but it is not yet real because I still have to die. Yeah. You know, and that is. You know, that's a disconcerting idea. You know, it's. It's a place where faith, I guess, where. Where faith becomes very, very practical because you're choosing to believe in something that, you know, at that point we can say there's historical evidence that we should trust. But I don't know anybody.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: Who's resurrected personally.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: You know what I mean?
[00:22:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: So, yeah, it just makes me think of that sort of already not yet concept of how we live in this. Like, I can see it a little bit, but it's not yet real. I can taste it a little bit, but it's not real yet.
Yeah, I guess I'm rambling a little bit. What are your thoughts, Phil?
[00:22:44] Speaker C: You know, I don't think everyone's experiences are the same. You know, God is.
He's a very intimate God. He speaks to me in ways that minister to me, and he speaks to you in ways that minister to you. And he's got a story for your life and a story for my life, and it's not all the same, you know, but, like, I don't know. I've been through enough stuff, enough bad stuff in my life that, like, I mean, you know, I've been like, you know, I'm not afraid of death. Going. Going for a nap and not waking up does not sound like the worst thing that could ever happen. I can. I can think of worse things that happen to me, and worse things have happened, you know, and I've actually never recovered from that, where I, like, you know, I've healed from things that have happened and so on and so forth, and I feel closer to the Lord than ever, but I've not been afraid of death ever since. And I think that.
I think that it.
I don't know, man.
You know, maybe some people learn it without getting crushed.
Maybe some people learn that all that the world has to offer and all of the things that we dream for aren't. Aren't worth it. Maybe people learn that. Some people.
But in some ways, the Lord kind of had to squeeze that out of me.
And now the resurrection means more than ever now.
I'm not afraid to die. I'm fine. I'm fine to die.
You know, I'm just an old car. The parts are wearing out, you know, but like.
But I look forward. I look forward to heaven, you know, like.
Yeah, I think it's like Paul said, you know, it's like, man, I'd depart and be with the Lord right now if I could. That would be great. But I'm not going to do that because I want to be here with you, and I know that we need each other and all that, you know?
[00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:00] Speaker C: So I'm kind of rambling, but I really think that.
That. That realizing the resurrection and the hope of the resurrection is more difficult for us. The more distracted we are by what we think we get now in.
In life.
And the more we learn that our life is a mission and the reward is later and the relationship is now, then I think the deeper our walk with God will be, the more we look forward to our time with him will be.
I won't wake up in the morning thinking, how can I accomplish goal number one and two?
I'll be thinking about, how do I, Lord, show me how I can share my faith today. Show me how I can be faithful today.
Show me how I can focus on you more today. Or maybe he's given you goals and talents and gifts for all of us, is how do I use those today for what really matters?
You know, I think it's so easy, so easy to be distracted. I think our world makes it so hard to be focused Even in ministry, I look around and I'm like, man, God bless some of these guys, you know, because, you know, their hearts are genuine for the Lord, but at the same time, there's, there's, there's kingdoms being built that aren't, aren't just for the Lord. Sure, it's for the Lord, and.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: And.
[00:26:47] Speaker C: That stuff is fleeting.
It's something the Lord taught me about ministry. And I've spent a lot of years in ministry, and I still consider myself to be in ministry. I just support myself with a job like Paul did, but there's nowhere to arrive in ministry.
Yeah, there's no greatness. No greatness to get. And if you, if your message becomes great, you probably won't even know.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:20] Speaker C: That it, that it did. There's just loving people and being faithful and walking with God every day.
So that was a little bit of a rabbit trail. So pastors included and myself included, I think we all need to be less distracted and, and, and, and I think the resurrection will mean more to us then.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Phil, you said, you said something about going, you've been through hard things and throughout your life, and that is, you're not afraid of death and that. I don't. This just came to my mind. I don't know if there's any grounds to this, but I'm not saying you have to suffer in order to realize who Jesus is and the, the maybe the ultimate sacrifice he made. But it's like following, following the, the resurrection or leading up to resurrection, he gets beaten, goes through trials, and then dies, but then defeats it. So, like, is there some. Maybe something too, like following that, that line in our life, going through hard things maybe prepares us or, or gives us a better perspective of what death is and what is what we can achieve through death.
I mean, that came my mind, but it just seemed like there's a very cool parallel kind of.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I think. Well, in a way, too, where we relate to Christ.
You know, we know him better because of his sufferings and we suffer, you know, we suffer along with him.
You know, he longed to be resurrected with the Father. I love him. I can't remember the chapter and verse, but in Matthew where he says, father, I long for to be with you, where you are, and for those who are with me to see me in my glory, you know, because they were used to seeing him just in an earthly way, but he wanted them to see everything. And, you know, and I think suffering plays a very important part.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:27] Speaker C: You know, but, you know, I do think it's possible for some. You know, some people learn better than others, and maybe I learn harder than others.
Um, you know, some of the pain in my life I cause all by myself.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Yeah. I think I. There have been multiple of, especially the early as church fathers and mothers. But I think Julian of Norwich talked about, as she was suffering with illness, like carrying the wounds of Christ in her body.
And she talks about. I think. I can't remember her phrasing of it. It's been a couple years since I read her primary work. But she talks about the great gifts that she saw through her suffering, and one of them was being united with Christ in his suffering. You know, I think there's this.
I don't want to miss this pastoral aside because there might be people watching this podcast that are in a season where their life feels like it's being crushed.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: And that.
That is.
That is the result of the brokenness of our world. But God does not waste it. Jesus experience. Jesus was crushed. It's by his stripes that we are healed.
So if you find yourself in a season of life that feels like the weight is just crushing you, then you are close to the man of sorrows.
And it is through the suffering that we see the hope.
[00:30:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: And there are, I think, those of us who.
There are people who somehow, it seems like the pain of life more or less misses them.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: You know, there are also people.
Yeah. There are also people who. It feels like they just are. They're never.
They disconnect from the pain in some way, you know, and I don't know if that's. I don't know if I'm jealous of them because they never seem to seriously be affected by things or what.
There are people like that, but if that's not you, if you find yourself, you know, in that place of just being oppressed in life, it feels like you are surrounded on all sides. Then just know that you are close to Christ and that Jesus defeated death through death.
So we can find hope in that and be close, close to Christ in those moments. I.
I have come to believe deeply over the years that there are things we learn in tragedy that we cannot learn in any other place. And the Lord will teach us beautiful things in the moments of suffering if instead of trying to avoid the suffering, we allow Christ to meet us in the suffering. I had a counselor one time tell me. He actually told me this in every session, but he said, I'm sorry it happened. I hate you have to go through it, but don't rush it.
Learn everything you can in the pain.
And that, like, that has become an anchor for me. I think if there's something else we can see in resurrection, it's, you know, don't. Don't rush it. Jesus didn't skip the pain, even though he could have.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: But he went through the suffering and even to death and then was resurrected and glorified.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:58] Speaker C: And the pain, you know, the pain will be, you know, if you're going through pain right now, like, the pain will be worth it in. In the end.
That doesn't mean God intended it in your life.
Romans 8:28. He works all things to good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. But the person you'll be at the end of it will be. Well, if you'll let it, you'll be somebody who knows God better, who hopes for the resurrection. More experience is more of the resurrection in your own life.
[00:33:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:34] Speaker C: You know.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: Yep.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, as we kind of bring this conversation to a close, what would you say, Phil, as you know, a pastor and a Bible teacher to someone who's right now, maybe they're wrestling with anxiety, fear, feeling hopeless. Just what would you say to them using the resurrection as the frame? How can they find hope and find peace through the knowledge of resurrection?
[00:34:11] Speaker C: Well, let me. Let me, Let me just say, because it's easy. It's easy to.
If you're experiencing anxiety or depression or fear or there's a hundred people out there to tell you what you should think.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:26] Speaker C: You know, I have anxiety.
I take medication for post traumatic stress disorder.
My. My natural bet is to expect the worst and to always be ready to fight that. That is me before I realized what was happening in my life. I was a chest out guy all the time. You hated me, all of you.
And, you know, so let, Let me just. Let me just say that. That I'm not. I'm not speaking from somebody who, who just thinks I know you.
And for me, guys, God is.
Look, it's not like the resurrection is not like Christmas, like the, like commercialized Christmas. It's not like your birthday. It's not like Memorial Day. It's not remembering something that happened.
Like God is alive.
Like Jesus is alive.
He didn't just come and say those things and die if he did. They're great things, but he did it. He's alive.
He sees what you're going through. He sees how you feel.
And what he wants you to know right now is that the God who's powerful enough to raise Jesus from the dead is with you.
And you have to really believe that that is true and know that that is true.
Move from believing to knowing.
Like having that level of confidence that this is true.
God's with me. I'm not alone. I matter because he says I matter.
I'm very important because I'm very important to Him.
I don't have to worry about tomorrow because he takes care of the grass, of the field and the flowers, and he'll provide for my needs.
If I will rely on him, then I can take some of this weight off of my shoulders and give it to Him.
Sometimes I think of, you know, really childish things. You can laugh at me, but maybe they'll be meaningful for you.
Sometimes when I want to, like I'm just feeling anxious, I just imagine, like if I'm anxious about something at work, I just imagine me walking into work with Jesus.
Like, this sounds corny, right? Jesus is holding my hand. And people might think that that's dorky until they realize it's Jesus, right? And it's God.
And it's like, if God is for me, what does it matter?
What does it matter what anybody at work thinks of me?
What does it matter?
If Jesus was with me everywhere, I would feel like a king.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:37:38] Speaker C: Like even thinking about it, it makes me weep. Like, how would I feel if Jesus went with me everywhere and people could see my value, right?
[00:37:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:49] Speaker C: But I have that value anyway.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Just.
[00:37:53] Speaker C: Just because he's not physically standing next to me everywhere I go, that is still the value I carry with me as a child of God, beloved by Jesus.
Right? So I know it's hard. I say be anxious for nothing because the Bible says that. Easier said than done. Haha. I get it.
Right? But the, but the more the resurrection is real to us. Like, no, that really happened. Jesus really is alive and he really is with me.
I'm not alone.
I'm not somebody who doesn't matter. Everything matters in my life to him.
And in the end, everyone will see that.
But for now, I just want to be faithful today.
I want to get past my anxiety the best I can to be faithful today, to do things for God while I can do them and, you know, not look back later wishing I did, you know?
But God, listen, God does love you. He is with you. And if you're struggling with anxiety, that's what you need to cling to. You don't. You don't have a long list of things to change in your life. You just have one job, draw near, forget everything else. Don't make A list. Quit looking at this. Quit saying that. Quit doing this, Quit doing this, quit doing that. Quit thinking that.
[00:39:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:23] Speaker C: Like, erase that whiteboard and just write on it. Draw near. That's all you need to do.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:29] Speaker C: Is near to God anyway. I'll stop.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: No, that's great, man. Bill, you said something at the fold, I think before a service a few, probably a year ago, something like that, that I think about a lot. You said that the Lord was teaching you that if you had been able to trust him in the traumatic seasons of life, they would have still been traumatic, but not as traumatic.
They would have still been hard.
But you, you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have carried the weight as long. And I've thought about that a lot because I've realized that I have the tendency in those seasons to just like I've described it like, like what I need is patience, but what I have is stubbornness. And they get you to the same kind of outcome, but it's just not nearly as fun.
You know what I mean? Like my, my faith has looked more like stubbornness, like God, I don't think it's gonna get better. And this really sucks, but I'm not gonna quit because I'm not a quitter. But all of this sucks, you know, and I'm glad I didn't quit.
But if I had been able in that, in those seasons of life to say, God, I trust you, and this sucks, but I know it's not always gonna suck, then it would have been hard, but man, it would not have been as hard, you know, it wouldn't have, the stress wouldn't have worn on me as much as it did, you know?
[00:41:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
Well, any, any wrap up thoughts, Grant?
[00:41:12] Speaker B: Phil, I was listening to a pastor earlier this week and he was talking about some parallels between the, the crucifixion, some of Jesus and the resurrection. Then also with the Jews being in Egypt and then the wilderness and going to the promised land. And he quoted a pastor, I don't remember what pastor was, but he, the pastor said something like, if the tomb is empty, then anything is possible.
And I, for me, I, I, I know that's true. I believe it. But sometimes it can just be come a fairy tale. And I just like, okay, yeah, it's, he resurrected, whatever, the tomb's empty.
But like actually living a life believing that anything is possible because our God is not in the tomb anymore. It's like just keeping that in the front of your mind just is, I think for me right now I've just been thinking that that quote has been going over and over in my head, like, yeah, anything is impossible. You can get through this anxious time. You can get through depression, you can get through any hard time. Yeah, it's not going to be great, but anything is. Is possible with God, so.
[00:42:22] Speaker C: Yeah, for real. And one of the things, too, that we get locked into is we think we know what tomorrow is, but. But we don't. You know, something bad could happen for sure, I guess. You know, but like, something great can happen too.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:42:36] Speaker C: And tomorrow. Tomorrow won't be what you think it's going to be. But like, you're saying all. Anything's possible, you know, like if we. If we depend on God and. And. And seek to be faithful, He. He can. He'll do some incredible things in our future, for sure.
We're not locked into what we think we are. As drab as it may feel right now or down as it might feel.
You know, God. God values our future. He's going to use us, and we're going to experience things anew. And I like that, that, you know, if Jesus resurrected, then all things are possible.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:15] Speaker C: That's a zinger.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, it seems like, you know, with the resurrection, this is the clearest place we can look to where we have to say, you have. Eventually you have to believe and choose to believe that the thing you cannot see is true, and you have to start living as if that is the case. You've got to start believing. You know, I think Rob Bell, back before he went way off the deep end, he used to talk about string theory and how, you know, spiritual. The spiritual dimension is a dimension to reality, and it's just as real as time and space and depth and everything else. We just can't see it because it. It sits just beyond our ability to perceive it. And put. Eventually you have to decide to say Jesus did resurrect, and that does change everything.
And that means the worst thing that could happen to me on this earth pales in comparison to just a normal day in eternity.
And eventually you've just got to.
You have to make some sort of decision to live as if that is true and, you know, seek to find your joy in that eternal hope.
[00:44:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: And that's like you said, Phil, that's not easy. You know, that's not. It's not. Have. Have enough faith and you won't be depressed anymore.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: You know, it's much more of like, choose to believe that a depression will not be your eternal future.
And probably not even your lifelong future in this life, you know, that whether it's miraculous healing or learning, a depth of, you know, understanding that transcends the feeling, you know, of. Of the depression or whatever it is. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's miraculous healing and sometimes it's a change in perspective that allows us to find joy in the midst of it. But that, that is what the Lord is doing.
And our hope is here and in eternity.
[00:45:14] Speaker C: Amen.
For sure.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: Well, thanks, Phil.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a pleasure.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: It's been great.
[00:45:20] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: Hey, I love you, man.
And come to Wyoming.
Come visit.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: Come hang out.
[00:45:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd love to. You're gonna take me hunting if I come?
[00:45:29] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. You need to come turkey hunt. And we've been here and Brandon, I went turkey hunting last week and we heard about probably 250 gobbles.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it was insane.
[00:45:39] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:45:40] Speaker A: Everywhere beautiful. You can see the Bighorn mountains off in the distance. We're sitting over the the high plains up in these piney hills, just listening to turkeys gobble all morning. It was awesome. You gotta come out.
[00:45:52] Speaker C: Do they have cinnamon rolls in Wyoming?
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. They eat them with chili out here, though.
[00:45:58] Speaker C: Oh, true.
Yeah.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: Wait, that's not like a nation, mind you.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: No, that's not it.
[00:46:03] Speaker C: Really.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: It's definitely not. Ah, you guys missed out in other places. You eat cinnamon rolls for breakfast and chili for lunch. You don't eat them together.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: Why not? Mash two good things together. You know.
[00:46:14] Speaker C: I'll try it.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: Yeah?
[00:46:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: All right, well, thanks for watching ecosystem. Before we get derailed by regional foods. We're going to wrap this thing up.
All right, See you next time y later.
[00:46:30] Speaker C: Sam.
